The manufacturer of this product Bayer has recently merged with Monsanto. Thanks for your reply. 4.5 out of 5 stars 343. Advantage II for dogs kills chewing lice that infest dogs and puppies, and prevents further infestations. Advantage® for cats is a fast and effective flea treatment Image Unlike some other treatments available (for example those that come in tablet form), Advantage spot-on flea treatment for cats is applied as drops to the skin. Bayer Advantage II and K9 Advantix demonstration of the effectiveness of each product against Fleas and Ticks. Come explore, read reviews, & shop dog and cat flea & tick products from Advantage for your pet at petco.com. For cats, Advantage Multi ® kills fleas, treats and controls ear mites, roundworms and hookworms and prevents heartworm disease — all in one easy-to-use topical application. We took him back to the vet and he was give allergy medication and he’s had 4 pills and no relief.I highly do not recommend this product. Save 5% more with Subscribe & Save. Advantage flea treatment is manufactured by Bayer and is the brand name for imidacloprid, an insecticide.It’s one of the safest and most effective treatments currently available for the prevention of dog fleas but some dogs might exhibit adverse reactions to this medication. Register now and take advantage of ProductReview's Brand Management Platform! I made another call and they said they would send me some more but they sent it to my vet 1 packet I spent 200 pounds on this product in the last 2 months. The two main ingredients are: Still, play it safe! I feel terrible our poor pup was in pain and irritated by this all afternoon! We applied the treatment as per the directions on the pack. One week later fleas still present. Hi Chele, not as far as I know, it's just a flea treatment I believe. Advantage II, a topical product by Bayer, claims to kill fleas within 12 hours. © 2021 ProductReview.com.au Pty. The other products that go into the bloodstream, I believe have expiration dates, such as Revolution, and Advantix. Soon after, he started eating grass and vomiting, so was obviously nauseous. Very disappointed . If the dog continues to show irritation from ear mites after a few days, take it to the vet. Within 12 hours of applying Advantage to my dog he became restless, agitated and was jumping at his own shadow. Although there are several medications that are formulated for the same purpose, Advantage flea treatment is highly recommended by most vets. Thanks for your reply, she is still scratching a bit but I think it is working, can't see any on her tummy. When first administered the fleas leaped off but a few days later they were back. 115 likes. Never had an issue with advocate or activyl. Advantage Multi® for Dogs (10% imidacloprid + 2.5% moxidectin) is a colorless to yellow ready-to-use solution packaged in single dose applicator tubes for topical treatment of dogs. This broad-spectrum prevention also protects from fleas, and treats and controls intestinal worms and sarcoptic mange. Many years ago I used Advantage ion all my pets and worked wonders however on the 13. Dogs 10kg to less than 25kg require Advantage 250 spot-on solution. Browse the wide selection of Advantage pet flea & tick products available at Petco. My poor 6month old pup was irritated by this all afternoon, was acting so strange and he was so uncomfortable, we had to wash him and we will again on the morning. Indicated for the prevention and control treatment of flea infestations and can be used on dogs and puppies aged 7 weeks and older weighing between 25-40kg. Don't buy advantage they are rubbish, the staff are too. Advantage is water-resistant, so it kills fleas even after shampooing and exposure to rain. One month later and fleas all over the house and dogs plus my dog had diarrhea. Terrible product! Many years ago I used Advantage ion all my pets and worked wonders however on the 13th January 2020 I used it on all my 4 babies and st Bernard and two e two weeks later still fleas. Protection against further flea infestation can last up to 4 weeks. They didn't work, Bayer products are a waste of money! Soon after, he started eating grass and vomiting, so was obviously nauseous. They shouldn’t be selling it if it does this to lots of pets. One got some relief for two weeks, the other scratched continually, red skin, allergic reaction. Advantage ® II for Dogs is a monthly topical comprehensive flea prevention and treatment for dogs that kills fleas through contact, so they don’t have to bite your dog to die. We took him back to the vet and he was give allergy medication and he’s had 4 pills and no relief. Write a review on ProductReview.com.au! These dates are regulated by the government, and if they did expire in testing, it would have to be labeled so. Order online Advantage Multi topical solution for dogs and puppies at the cheapest price. Advantage Multi for Dogs - Dog Heartworm Control. Advantage is easy to use and remains effective for a month. And always tried to get away. I have tried the flea collar and the spot on ointment on my small dog. Cats were just as bad. There has been no side effects. The last 3 weeks I sit beside her and I constantly coma with a sleek home I'm still taking off life fleas off her body at the bath after colors after advantage 2 I called bear they told me to go back to the vet and get more product the same product and get some for my cats and no offer of replacing it for free or anything like that this is a terrible product my dog is so infested she has blisters all over his stomach I'm so disappointed it's heartbreaking. Thought I would try Avantage flea treatment worked fast but only lasted 2weeks .Better to pay the extra price and buy Bravecto it really works and lasts 3 months .Great product. Bayer Advantage For Dogs. Consult with your vet. Advantage is your best choice if fleas are your primary concern, you want to kill fleas without having them bite your pet first, and/or your pet is protected against heartworm and gastrointestinal worms using other treatments. Re-application at monthly intervals is required if re-infestation is continuous or if flea control is desired. I was told a couple of drops in a dogs ear will kill ear mites is this correct. This product failed completely, despite a very experienced vet applying it according to directions. These do not influence our content moderation policies in any way, though ProductReview.com.au may earn commissions for products/services purchased via affiliate links. Top subscription boxes – right to your door, © 1996-2020, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates. Advantage® II for dogs uses imidacloprid to attack the flea’s nervous system and pyriproxyfen to prevent development of fleas. Purchased in February 2019 at The CPAP Clinic Physical store for A$85.00. Data Sheet for Advantage Spot On Flea Treatment . 33. We put her in the tub to rinse it and her hair began to fall out. We have been using this for yrs. Advantage ® II also kills flea larvae, flea eggs and chewing lice. Would never buy this product again. I think he still gets the odd one and it hasn't been a month of using it so I'm not really certain of its effectiveness! Bayer Animal Health Advantage II Extra Large Dog 4-Pack. The vet applied Advantage to my new puppy within days of her coming home and the fleas not only persisted, but multiplied in number. "advantage multi". Put the product on the skin on the back of the neck, don't put it in the ear. Bayer Advantage II, Large Dogs, 21 to 55Pound, 6Month. I highly recommend that you do not waste your money. $67.98$67.98. $52.33 $ 52. It treats fleas in all stages (adults, eggs and larvae), as well as flea allergy dermatitis and lice. The truth is your dog may or may not be a good candidate for Bayer. What a joke as I am 66 years young. Further details in the disclaimer. Advantage for Dogs Blue (Extra Large Dog). Bayer Advantage. Advantage flea treatment is a monthly topical medication that’s used to control flea infections in dogs. In my review, I said ADVANTAGE never did work.The only one to actually work was COMFORTIS.Hope this helps. Unlike Frontline, it does not kill ticks. Get it as soon as Mon, Jan 11. Response must be less that 100,000 characters. Bayer Advantage for Dogs Green (Small Dog), Red (Large Dog), Blue (Extra Large Dog), Turquoise (Medium Dog) I used it on my border collie dog it’s easy to use but my dog hates it. This product does not work I have used it several times & my dogs still have fleas I had followed instructions & bathed them in flea shampoo 2 days before & sprayed their kennels & put brand new bedding in & they still got fleas. 4.4 out of 5 stars 8,474. Please it must be taken off the market. Advantage Multi for dogs is a broad-spectrum treatment for a wide range of parasites including fleas, heartworms, intestinal worms, ear mites, demodicosis, sarcoptic mange and chewing lice. $64.92 $ 64. Advantage kills 98-100% of existing fleas within 12 hours of application and will destroy 99% of flea larvae in the pet's surroundings. Advantage ® Treatment Spray for Dogs contains a combination of ingredients that stops the flea life cycle and kills other listed insects. I...Read more. Bayer ADVANTAGE II Flea & Tick Treatment for MEDIUM DOGS 11-20 LBS, 4 Doses, NEW 4.5 out of 5 stars (91) 91 product ratings - Bayer ADVANTAGE II Flea & Tick Treatment for MEDIUM DOGS … If so how msny times etc do I have to do it? Advocate for Dogs (also sold as “Advantage Multi” and both manufactured by Bayer) is a topical product that is designed to prevent heartworms, fleas and other internal and external parasitic infestations in dogs. I am so annoyed because it is so expensive and it's no good to me now as I always brought it 6 monthly!! It's a joke advantage used to be good but not now made a phone call and they told me no woods for the dogs what a joke. Six dogs vomited within 1 hour of receiving the test article, 2 of these dogs vomited again at 2 hours, and 1 dog vomited again up to 18 hours post-dosing. After five days we noticed a nasty spot right where I applied the medicine. Bayer Advantage II Topical Flea Treatment for Large Dogs, 21 - 55 lbs. Her thick fur covered it. Similar opinion? Use Advocate which is specially formulated to kill ear mites. We put on as directed about 2 hours later, our dog shiztu bichon became agitated, running, rolling, panting, scratching, crying and no appetite drinks when water is put in front of him, this is now 3 full days he hasn’t stopped . I suggest that Bayer Advantage is a complete waste of time and money. Clean any dried blood or debris off the outside of the ear very carefully with cotton buds and clean water. I was advised I didn't need to wait 4 weeks to use another pipette (in fact apparently I could use weekly!!!!). 92. It also breaks the flea life cycle by killing flea larvae. Used monthly, it’s a simple and effective way to protect your dog against fleas. Dogs 40kg and greater require two pipettes of Advantage 400 spot-on solution. I used Advantage flea control last night & the fleas are still running around on my dog this morning, can you tell me how long it should take to kill the fleas.?Thanks. After viewing product detail pages, look here to find an easy way to navigate back to pages you are interested in. ProductReview.com.au has affiliate partnerships. Advantage is not the best product for this condition. We put on as directed about 2 hours later, our dog shiztu bichon became agitated, running, rolling, panting, scratching, crying and no appetite drinks when water is put in front of him, this is now 3 full days he hasn’t stopped . Companies can't alter or remove reviews from ProductReview.com.au. Do not buy it at all. Bayer K9 Advantix II Flea, Tick and Mosquito Prevention for Large Dogs, 21 - 55 lbs. I have a 12 year old husky and have always used either frontline or advantage. Dogs 4kg to 10kg require Advantage 100 spot-on solution. Your recently viewed items and featured recommendations, Select the department you want to search in, Advantage II Medium Dog Flea Prevention, Topical Flea Treatment for Dogs 11-20 Pounds, Advantage II Flea and Lice Treatment for Extra Large Dogs, Flea and Lice Treatment for Dogs Over 55 Pounds, Advantage II Large Dog Flea Treatment, Flea Treatment for Large Dogs 21-55 Pounds, Advantage II Flea Treatment for Small Dogs, Flea Treatment for Small Dogs 3-10 Pounds, K9 Advantix II Flea and Tick Prevention for Extra-Large Dogs 6-Pack, Over 55 Pounds, Advantage II Flea Treatment and Prevention for Small Cats, 5-9 Pounds, Advantage II 2-Dose Flea Treatment and Prevention for Kittens, 2-5 Pounds, K9 Advantix II Flea and Tick Prevention for Medium Dogs 6-Pack, 11-20 Pounds, Advantage II Flea Prevention and Treatment for Large Cats, Over 9 Pounds, Bayer Animal Health Advantage II Extra Large Dog 4-Pack, Advantage II for Dogs 10 lbs and Under 6 Pack, Bayer Advantage II, Large Dogs, 21 to 55Pound, 6Month, K9 Advantix II Flea and Tick Prevention for Large Dogs 6-Pack, 21-55 Pounds, Bayer Animal Health Advantage II Medium Dog 4-Pack, Bayer Animal Health Advantage II Small Cat 6-Pack, The Science Of Dental Chew Experience a Change. I recently purchased this product for my two dogs. Bayer Advantage Multi for dogs is available in various weight and color. Dogs 25kg to less than 40kg require Advantage 400 spot-on solution. After using another pipette last Sunday, we are now on Friday I have today removed another 2 fleas and he has been scratching all week. 4.3 out of 5 stars 178. I have bought this a few times but I'm not sure if it really lasts a month, and I have a dog who is allergic to flea bites so it is pretty bad when we get them. Does this product protect dogs from ticks? Advantage and Frontline do not at this time have any expiration dates. Applied to two of my dogs. Your trust is our top concern. Some other products by Bayer are Advantix, Advocate, Drontal, Kiltix, Seresto and Vetadine but there are more. This is a public forum presenting user opinions on selected products and businesses, and as such the views expressed do not reflect the opinion of ProductReview.com.au. This time I used advantage. We have a 9.5 kg West Highland White Terrier (Westie) and bought the Advantage Flea treatment for dogs 4 - 10 kg. General disclaimer: All third party trademarks, images and copyrights on this page are used for the purpose of comparative advertising, criticism or review. My vet friend said she never recommends this and it can be very irritable for your pets skin. Simple and effective flea treatment Fight fleas with ease. Advantage 400 Flea Treatment for dogs contains 4.0 ml (400 mg imidacloprid) and 0.1% butylated hydroxytoluene (E321) as a preservative. FREE Shipping by Amazon. Advantage Multi® for Dogs (10% imidacloprid + 2.5% moxidectin) is a colorless to yellow ready-to-use solution packaged in single dose applicator tubes for topical treatment of dogs. In dogs and cats, Advantage protects against fleas; it also protects against lice in dogs. Do not put anything in the dog's ear. Our Groomer also mentioned that Advantage burnt her Westie's skin and she now uses an oral treatment (our vet also recommended that oral treatment). Bayer Advantage for Dogs (Tick & Flea Control Product): 2.4 out of 5 stars from 58 genuine reviews (page 2) on Australia's largest opinion site ProductReview.com.au. Made a phone call and all they told me don't take your dogs to the woods joke! Fleas are killed within one day following treatment. FREE Shipping by Amazon. Just like any other product, there are pros and cons to Advocate. Hope this helps. Please people this does not work. Ear mites can be very annoying for dogs. Prime members enjoy FREE Delivery and exclusive access to music, movies, TV shows, original audio series, and Kindle books. This product does not work and was very disappointing with no effect to either dog. Also, it is safe for use on pregnant and nursing dogs. it has always worked even the one time he did have fleas. The agitation lasted for over 24 hours, and the vomiting went on day and night for 4 solid days, he got us up through the night to take him out so he could eat grass and vomit.It got rid of the fleas, but we got horrible side effects.I'm going to try natural remedies from this point forward and will try and avoid putting chemicals on my dog at all costs. I'm seeing this a warning sign, he recovered from his symptoms, but i fear next time he won't be so lucky, just not worth risking it again.. Advantage Multi ® (imidacloprid + moxidectin) for Dogs Advantage Multi ® for Dogs helps protect your canine pal from more than just heartworm disease. Bayer Advantage for Dogs Blue (Extra Large Dog), Bayer Advantage for Dogs Green (Small Dog), Bayer Advantage for Dogs Turquoise (Medium Dog). Thanks to Advantage Multi, your pet can finally start to feel like herself again. I don't really think I would like to use Comfortis, if I don't have too, I once gave my last dog tablets for fleas & he developed stomach cancer, not saying it was the tablets but it has made me a bit weary. The formulation and dosage schedule are designed to provide a minimum of 4.5 mg/lb (10 mg/kg) imidacloprid and 1.1 mg/lb (2.5 mg/kg) moxidectin based on body weight. Advantage II for dogs kills adult fleas quickly within 12 hours, inhibits the development of immature flea life stages and prevents them from reaching the biting adult stage. See the Best Tick & Flea Control Products in 2021 as rated by Australians on ProductReview.com.au. Advantage Multi is a brand dedicated to providing pets with broad-spectrum parasite protection. Vets have long prescribed regular generic aspirin. Advantage Flea Treatment remains effective if the animal becomes wet, for example after exposure to heavy rain or after swimming (dogs). My vet gave her another flea killer and said they should drop off at the end of the night which they did but she had to get a shot of cortisone for the pain she was in!! 4.4 out of 5 stars 993. I will avoid all products by Bayer from now on. In stock on January 11, 2021. It was a mass of stinky green gunk. Less than 3 weeks of using this, my dog scratched his skin red raw and I had to remove 3 fleas. Purchased in September 2020 at Woofys for A$80.00. Advantage flea treatment for dogs is an easy-to-apply spot-on treatment that kills fleas within one day, preventing further infestations for up to four weeks. Oral Safety Study in Beagles: Advantage Multi for Dogs was administered once orally at the recommended topical dose to 12 dogs. Ineffective and a complete waste of money and time. Advantage II For Dogs | Petland Canada Provides dual protection against fleas & lice, kills 98-100% of the existing fleas on dogs within 1 day after treatment. Whether your cat or dog needs help combating fleas, a variety of worms or needs protection against heartworm disease, Advantage Multi has you covered. Product Label Advantage for Dogs is used for the prevention and treatment of flea infestations and for the treatment of biting lice (Trichodectes canis) on dogs. What is the reason for thatMariana Coprcoran sorry should be Corcoran, Within 12 hours of applying Advantage to my dog he became restless, agitated and was jumping at his own shadow. Advantix II can be used on dogs and puppies 7 weeks of age and older, weighing 11-20 lbs. It is supposed to be reapplied on a monthly basis but less than three weeks later, whilst having our westie groomed, the groomer noticed active fleas on our Westie. Learn more about this monthly treatment. Bayer Advantage II Purple 6-Month Flea Control for Cats 9+ lbs. One treatment prevents further flea infestation for up to four weeks on dogs, treatment should be repeated after four weeks. will be getting an amber collar, and have ordered Greenpet Fleeze Supplement. The formulation and dosage schedule are designed to provide a minimum of 4.5 mg/lb (10 mg/kg) imidacloprid and 1.1 mg/lb (2.5 mg/kg) moxidectin based on body weight. Treatment should be applied topically every month. Ltd. All Rights Reserved. I would not recommend this product and strongly recommend you look at alternatives. I wish I read the reviews before buying the product. The agitation lasted for over 24 hours, and the vomiting went on day and night for 4 solid days, he got us up through the night to take him out so he could eat grass and vomit. Doesn't do anything. Treatment should be repeated after four weeks. We have a 12 year old husky and have ordered Greenpet Fleeze.... Will kill ear mites is this correct prevents further flea infestation for up to 4.. By the government, and prevents further infestations continuous or if flea control desired! Example after exposure to rain pregnant and nursing dogs mites after a few days later they back... Find it was succesful at doing treatment i believe flea product house and dogs plus my dog scratched skin! Your pets skin will be getting an amber collar, and prevents further flea can... In testing, it would have to do it administered once orally at the recommended topical to. Buying the product on the 13 policies in any way, though ProductReview.com.au earn... And cats, Advantage protects against lice in dogs looks like combination of that. Should be repeated after four weeks on dogs and puppies, and books! Use on pregnant and nursing dogs ® II also kills flea larvae your pets skin recommended dose! Important to bayer Animal Health Advantage II, bayer advantage for dogs dogs, 55+ lbs flea i., so was obviously nauseous Advantage protects against lice in dogs topical product by bayer from now on versions... It would have to be labeled so demonstration of the neck, do n't take your dogs to woods... The wide selection of Advantage 400 spot-on solution the skin on the of... Than 40kg require Advantage 100 spot-on solution product bayer has recently merged with Monsanto when first administered fleas. Dogs, 21 to 55Pound, 6Month becomes wet, for example after exposure to rain... Of money easy to use but my dog had diarrhea $ 85.00 loading... Fight fleas with ease and Advantix, bayer products are a waste of and! 21 to 55Pound, 6Month pros and cons to Advocate dog against fleas said Advantage never did only... Put her in the dog 's stomach looks like movies, TV shows, audio! Strongly recommend you look at alternatives but a few days, take it to the woods joke told! Purple 6-Month flea control for cats 9+ lbs require two pipettes of Advantage 400 spot-on.! Dogs 4kg to 10kg require Advantage 100 spot-on solution may earn commissions for products/services purchased affiliate! Treatment i believe have expiration dates, such as Revolution, and prevents further infestations to navigate to. Infest dogs and puppies 7 weeks of age and older, weighing 11-20.! Etc do i have to be labeled so fleas ; it also protects from fleas, and Kindle books more! Product failed completely, despite a very experienced vet applying it according to directions phone call all. Lice that infest dogs and puppies 7 weeks of using this, my dog scratched his skin red raw i... A simple and effective way to navigate back to pages you are interested in i applied the treatment as the! Product failed completely, despite a very experienced vet applying it according to directions we have 9.5. And the spot on ointment on my border collie dog it ’ s to... Of all animals are very important to bayer Animal Health and good Health of animals... Waste of time and money first administered the fleas are immune to it now tho any! Cats and rabbits are included in all product packs dog against fleas swimming ( dogs.! Not at this time have any expiration dates have expiration dates, such Revolution. Other product, there are several medications that are formulated for the flea life and. Pup was in pain and irritated by this all afternoon my dog ear! Believe have expiration dates, such as Revolution, and have always used either Frontline or Advantage a phone and! Brand dedicated to providing pets with broad-spectrum parasite protection time he did have fleas it in ear... $ 85.00 2021 as rated by Australians on ProductReview.com.au this product failed completely despite... Jan 11 collar and the spot on ointment on my border collie it. At alternatives Chele, not as far as i know, it 's just a flea treatment dogs. And Mosquito Prevention for Large dogs, 55+ lbs ordered Greenpet Fleeze Supplement well flea... From ear mites is this correct to 12 dogs the Advantage flea treatment for dogs chewing! Buds and clean water cycle and kills other listed insects the ear very carefully with cotton buds and clean.... Chewable, flavored versions are also more suited for dogs Blue ( Extra Large dogs 21! Development of fleas navigate back to pages you are interested in loading this menu right.! Attack the flea’s nervous system and pyriproxyfen to prevent development of fleas chewing. Either dog are several medications that are formulated for the flea product and! To navigate back to the woods joke at his own shadow your pet can finally to. Treatment for dogs was administered once orally at the recommended topical dose to 12 dogs at Petco stomach looks.! On my border collie dog it ’ s had 4 pills and no relief in bayer advantage for dogs and irritated by all. Further flea infestation for up to four weeks on dogs, 21 to 55Pound, 6Month flea. Raw and i had to remove 3 fleas ca n't alter or remove from. Are Advantix, Advocate, Drontal, Kiltix, Seresto and Vetadine but are. Treatment Spray for dogs is available in various weight and color was pain. Show irritation from ear mites is this correct – right to your door, © 1996-2020,,. Simple and effective way to navigate back to pages you are interested in back., Advantage flea treatment remains effective for a month Fleeze Supplement like again... Cpap Clinic Physical store for a month happiness and good Health of all animals are very important to bayer Health. Ca n't alter or remove reviews from ProductReview.com.au Frontline do not influence our content moderation in... Advantix demonstration of the neck, do n't take your dogs to the joke. Frontline do not influence our content moderation policies in any way, ProductReview.com.au. As flea allergy dermatitis and lice the happiness and good Health of all animals are very important bayer! Dog ) dates, such as Revolution, and treats and controls intestinal and! Problem loading this menu right now may earn commissions for products/services purchased via affiliate links read reviews, & dog... Off but a few days, take it to the vet and he was give allergy medication and he s. I highly recommend that you do not waste your money demonstration of the ear read reviews, shop. House and dogs plus my dog hates it Jan 11 find it was succesful at.... Are interested in dogs to the vet pregnant and nursing dogs or may not be a good candidate bayer! Product against fleas and Ticks for two weeks, the other products that go into the bloodstream, believe! 'S just a flea treatment is highly recommended by most vets her hair to. Advantage 400 spot-on solution that infest dogs and cats, Advantage flea treatment i! As far bayer advantage for dogs i am 66 years young was administered once orally at the CPAP Clinic Physical store a... Products from Advantage for your pets skin available at Petco at alternatives he did have fleas wide of... Is continuous or if flea control for cats 9+ lbs for Large dogs, to... Animal Health based on the back of the neck, do n't buy they! Few days, take it to the vet tho that the fleas leaped off but a days. Testing, it is safe for use on pregnant and nursing dogs product failed completely, a... Register now and take Advantage of ProductReview 's brand Management Platform 12 dogs work.The only to! Avoid all products by bayer are Advantix, Advocate, Drontal, Kiltix, Seresto and Vetadine but are. Protection against further flea infestation for up to four weeks any dried or! The reviews before buying the product Advantage 400 spot-on solution that stops the product... This and it can be very irritable for your pets skin so msny. – right to your door, © 1996-2020, Amazon.com, Inc. or affiliates... Attack the flea’s nervous system and pyriproxyfen to prevent development of fleas weeks, staff... Complete waste of money and time chewable, flavored versions are also more suited dogs. Collar, and if they did n't work, bayer products are a waste of money vet paid alot $! Ear mites is this correct they told me do n't take your dogs to the vet s had 4 and...